Can Bitcoin Survive Quantum Computers? Crypto Briefing
Can Bitcoin Survive Quantum Computers? Crypto Briefing
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Moloch seems a perfect storm of smart guy dumbness. A DAO, inspired by Slatestarcodex/LessWrong ideas - the same source of "invent from scratch" bad thinking that led to Vitalik's quantum bitcoin mining foolishness.
Unpopular opinion: Bitcoin isn´t what it claims to be
BTW I HAVE OWNED BTC IN MY LIFE ! This is not to be meant a troll. See it as an opportunity to question BTC in order to make it better eventually(?)! The reason why I put up this post is because I see so many people on Instagram or elsewhere getting into Bitcoin as a speculative investment and thinking it is going to the moon just for some halvening. I do not dislike the idea of cryptocurrency but actually there are a few problems with Bitcoin. Yes, Bitcoin has paved the way for crypto, that is true. Yes, Bitcoin is a great idea with great ideals. Yet it is still destined to fail. A lot of people say that BTC will be the future because of various characteristics like:
Claim #1 BTC is anonymous:
"Some effort is required to protect your privacy with Bitcoin. All Bitcoin transactions are stored publicly and permanently on the network, which means anyone can see the balance and transactions of any Bitcoin address. However, the identity of the user behind an address remains unknown until information is revealed during a purchase or in other circumstances. "
Well, not really. BTC is tied to it´s miners. And while a lot of people here call themselves early adopters, they have never ever contributed to a solved-block. Why is this important? Who sells you your BTC? The miners... so if any big enough group of ( chinese bc they are very active) miners decides it is time to rob the people back of the BTC they sold them - there is no one going to stop them. And unfortunately this all plays along with BTC´s rules. Everyone who didn´t get along on this one should research '51% Attack Bitcoin'\1]) The only counter I can think of is " but all the faulty transactions could be recognized and we (the hodlers) can verify the original chain on a new fork " or something like that, yeah well but technically you will still be fighting the miners and their hashrates
If I want to send you a 100 million bucks, yeah well that can be pretty f-ing cheap in comparison to normal banks. But one of the main reasons that Bitcoins transaction fees have risen for the amounts that you actually want to use daily , is because it is more profitable for miners\1]) So as more people adopt and thus transactions getting more profitable for the miners, fees are gonna rise.. - Also in term of energy consumption. A SINGLE transaction needs as much power as an entire US-household uses in an avg 23 days\3]) That is not sustainable, as the consumption grows with adoption. Even with 100% renewable power( which we are far away from) the shere amount of ressources (e.g silicon for solar-panels for "neutral" energy) is very debatable. Also the mining hardware has to be changed with every halvening (press f for all these rare metals in computer parts)
What will you do with Bitcoin if Google or IBM (or others) get their quantum computers to work so good, that they will easily decrypt bitcoins encryption. Here is an interesting video if you are interested in how QComputing threatens basically anything that is encrypted:
To anybody who says "look at the dollar dying, we will go to 100,000$ soon" - you are most likely speculating instead of believing in the intrinsic value of BTC (proof of work). If you keep measuring BTC worth in any fiat currency, you lost the point. If it really becomes THE currency, any comparison to fiat is obsolete.
I know this one is kinda unsolid but I wanted to throw it in! #6 Thought: Financial Elite
Bitcoin rewards those who adopt first. Sounds good, right? If fiat and governments fail, most of you will be the top 1% while holding 90% of the BTC in circulation. Will that be any better than the monetary system we have right now? In the end Bitcoiin will not serve the many, who have little but it will serve the few who have much. Think about your fellow (billions of) humans around the world. Will you explain to them: ' Well I got in first, so I am entiteled to be rich' ? I think if BTC would actually become widely adopted, that is an ethical question a lot of people have to ask themselves!
Tbh, this might be the most important point for me and I am SUPER excited for your opinions on that! TL:DR I think there are good reasons why BTC is (unfortunately) wishful thinking and other cryptos with hopefully better systems will take lead. I would love to hear good arguments against my positions because mostly people get triggered instead of having a conversation that could benefit everybody! EDIT: Another source for problems with encryption: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1804.08118.pdf " On the insecurity of quantum Bitcoin mining "
Abstract We initiate the study of quantum races, games where two or more quantum computers compete to solve a computational problem. While the problem of dueling algorithms has been studied for classical deterministic algorithms, the quantum case presents additional sources of uncertainty for the players. The foremost among these is that players do not know if they have solved the problem until they measure their quantum state. This question of `when to measure?' presents a very interesting strategic problem. We develop a game-theoretic model of a multiplayer quantum race, and find an approximate Nash equilibrium where all players play the same strategy. In the two-party case, we further show that this strategy is nearly optimal in terms of payoff among all symmetric Nash equilibria. A key role in our analysis of quantum races is played by a more tractable version of the game where there is no payout on a tie; for such races we completely characterize the Nash equilibria in the two-party case. One application of our results is to the stability of the Bitcoin protocol when mining is done by quantum computers. Bitcoin mining is a race to solve a computational search problem, with the winner gaining the right to create a new block. Our results inform the strategies that eventual quantum miners should use, and also indicate that the collision probability---the probability that two miners find a new block at the same time---would not be too high in the case of quantum miners. Such collisions are undesirable as they lead to forking of the Bitcoin blockchain. References [ABL+17] Divesh Aggarwal, Gavin Brennen, Troy Lee, Miklos Santha, and Marco Tomamichel. Quantum attacks on Bitcoin and how to prevent against them. Technical Report arXiv:1710.10377, arXiv, 2017. [Bac02] Adam Back. Hashcash—a denial of service counter-measure, 2002. Available at: http://www.hashcash.org/papers/hashcash.pdf. [Bit18] Bitmain. Bitmain Antminer S9. https://shop.bitmain.com/antminer_s9_asic_bitcoin_miner.html, 2018. Accessed 2018-02-16. [BK17] Alex Biryukov and Dmitry Khovratovich. Equihash: Asymmetric proof-of-work based on the generalized birthday problem. Ledger, 2:1–30, 2017. [But13] Vitalik Buterin. Bitcoin is not quantum safe, and how we can fix it when needed. https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bitcoin-is-not-quantum-safe-and-how-we-can-fix-1375242150/, 2013. [CL99] Miguel Castro and Barbara Liskov. Practical byzantine fault tolerance. In Third Symposium on Operating Systems Design and Implementation, 1999. [DH08] Catalin Dohotaru and Peter Høyer. Exact quantum lower bound for grover’s problem. Technical Report arXiv:0810.3647, arXiv, 2008. [Dor60] William S. Dorn. Duality in quadratic programming. Quarterly of applied mathematics, 18(2):155–162, 1960. [EGS14] Ittay Eyal and Emin G¨un Sirer. Majority is not enough: Bitcoin mining is vulnerable. In 18th International Conference on Financial Cryptography and Data Security, 2014. [GKW+16] Arthur Gervais, Ghassan Karame, Karl W¨ust, Vasileios Glykantzis, Hubert Ritzdorf, and Srdjan Capkun. On the security and performance of proof of work blockchains. In Proceedings of the 2016 ACM SIGSAC Conference on Compute and Communications Security (CCS’16), pages 3–16, 2016. [Gro96] Lov K. Grover. A fast quantum mechanical algorithm for database search. In Proceedings of the Twenty-eighth Annual ACM Symposium on Theory of Computing, STOC ’96, pages 212–219, New York, NY, USA, 1996. ACM. [IKL+11] Nicole Immorlica, Adam Tauman Kalai, Brendan Lucier, Ankur Moitra, Andrew Postlewaite, and Moshe Tennenholtz. Dueling algorithms. In Proceedings of the forty-third annual ACM symposium on theory of computing (STOC’11), pages 215–224, 2011. [KRDO17] Aggelos Kiayias, Alexander Russell, Bernardo David, and Roman Oliynykov. Ouroboros: A provably secure proof-of-stake blockchain protocol. In CRYPTO, pages 357–388, 2017. [MS64] Olvi L. Mangasarian and H. Stone. Two-person nonzero-sum games and quadratic programming. Journal of mathematical analysis and applications, 9:348–355, 1964. [Nak09] Satoshi Nakamoto. Bitcoin: A peer-to-peer electronic cash system, 2009. Available at: http://www.bitcoin.org/pdf. [Nas51] John F. Nash. Non-cooperative games. Annals of Mathematics, 54(2):286–295, 1951. [Sat18] Or Sattath. On the insecurity of quantum Bitcoin mining. Technical Report arXiv:1804.08118, arXiv, 2018. Appeared in QCRYPT 2018.
so i am just starting this weeks episode... avid fan, come to this sub and read all the time.... tend to believe in the quantum bitcoin mining theory... in tonight's "recap" before the actual episode a scene outside a Fry's takes place with Leon, Mobley and Trenton... I can not explain how I have not see this scene as I have no "Mr.Robot" that takes over my body... What season/episode did this interaction between these 3 happen? please and thanks yous.
I've read a few posts and goings on in the world of bitcoin and blockchain and i have a few doubts that are starting to creep up. Your inputs and clarifications required. As i understand it, bitcoin is a peer to peer currency that is cannot be regulated by any single person or organization or region. But as soon as I put my bitcoin into an exchange, i'm jumping the gap from a decentralized, deregulated domain (that of "pure bitcoin" for want of a better term) into a financially regulated domain (the exchange). Now. How come the exchange is regulated? But the bitcoins inherently aren't? Isn't there a dichotomy here? In essence, the exchange will set up it's own rules (to it's financial advantage, i might add) and thereby regulate the payout of or transfer of bitcoins to buyers and sellers. But again, by definition, a bitcoin is peer to peer. so why not the exchange also be peer to peer and decentralized? Fees: Every payment has a miner fee attached to it. So technically, if i am running a large mining operation, I'm lured to handle transactions that have the highest fees in my own interest. So even if there is a low fee associated with a large btc transaction (by volume i.e. a single transfer of 30 btc from A -> B) I may choose to forgo handling that transaction. Put another way, I am now indirectly controlling the production of new bitcoins (a.k.a. my reward which will ultimately also be part of the "btc economy" in the future) simply by being picky about the transaction fees associated with a transaction. Doesn't this go against the original thinking of bitocin? So is there a way to put a "cap" on the fees (either as a percentage or as a quantum? Bitcoin mining ASIC stuff: If blocks are supposed to take an average of 10 minutes is there a way of throttling their "production" (or "discover") that is built into the bitcoin technology? What prevents me from making a really quick miner that spits out transaction every five minutes instead of the averagre of 10 minutes? Finally, with the recent rally of BTC, do you think it's even real to compare btc with fiat? After all, that is not an apple to apple comparison, right? On the one hand, I've got a quasi utopian peer to peer mechanism that hits the sweet spot while on the other, I'm trying to compare that to some fiat which is probably just a piece of paper with fancy design on it. This is not intended to be a rant. I'm very pro bitcoin and have full faith in it for the long term. I'm just trying understand the answers to a few questions running in my mind about this awesome stuff, right now. Have a good day and Thanks in Advance! HODLer
Forgive me, because I don't have a lot of knowledge on computers, but from what I know, quantum computers can get a lot of information through 0-1 bit duality, and Grover operations. From this it seems like cryptography could potentially be cracked. Are we going to end up with cryptography being attacked with cryptocurrencies, or are quantum computers just going to significantly increase hashrate efficiency? Will we end up with "Quantum" ASICs?
Can a quantum computer be used for bitcoin mining?
This has been bothering me for a while. I'm a newbie in computer science, and I just found out about Grover’s algorithm, which can only be implemented on a quantum computer. Supposedly it can achieve a quadratic speedup over a classical computer, brute-forcing a solution to a n-bit symmetric encryption key in 2^n/2 iterations. This led me to think that, by utilizing a quantum computer or quantum simulator of about 40-qubits that runs Grover's algorithm, is it possible to mine bitcoins this way? The current difficulty of bitcoin mining is about 15,466,098,935,554 (approximately 2^44), which means that it would take about 2^44*2^32=2^76 SHA256 hashes before a valid block header hash is found. However, by implementing Grover's algorithm, we would only need to sort through 2^76/2=2^38 hashes to discover a valid block header hash. A 38-qubit quantum computer should be sufficient in this case - which means the 40-qubit quantum computer should be more than enough to handle bitcoin mining. Therefore - is it possible to use quantum computers to mine bitcoins this way? I'm not too familiar with quantum computers, so please correct me if I missed something....... NOTE: I am NOT asking whether it is possible to use quantum computers to break the ECDSA secp256k1 algorithm, which would effectively allow anyone to steal bitcoins from wallets. I know that this would require much more than 40 qubits, and is definitely not happening in the near-future. Rather, I'm asking about bitcoin mining, which is a much easier problem than trying to break ECDSA secp256k1.
11-21 16:13 - '"It took 200 secs for Quantum computers to do a calculation of what it would have taken current supercomputers 10,000 years to accomplish." Does this mean that Quantum computers can speed up Bitcoin mining?' (youtube.com) by /u/axle_gallardo removed from /r/Bitcoin within 19-29min
As long as multiple users have access to a quantum computer, no single quantum computer will gain dominance over Bitcoin mining. Alternative proof-of-work mining schemes can also prevent quantum dominance, and some studies have found that ASIC devices, which are already faster than normal computers, can reduce the quantum advantage over mining. As you might expect, a quantum computer capable of solving the bitcoin mining algorithm was very expensive (this particular brand, the QIntellize Quantum Computer, costs at least $ 1million). Since the reward for mining a bitcoin block is now at 12.5 bitcoins, at $4000 per bitcoin I should be able to pay it off after mining a few blocks quickly! If a quantum computer did manage to mine all 2016 blocks, the network would simply adjust the difficulty, bottlenecking Sycamore’s further attempts. Still, in reality, the likelihood of bitcoin network being able to produce a difficulty setting of this level is improbable. Quantum Computers Could ‘Break’ Bitcoin Quantum Mining, an award winning crypto mining company with physical mining farms based in Sweden is offering bitcoin mining contracts starting from $1,000 all the way up to $100,000. Quantum Mining prides itself on offering a real client-oriented service to the clients as well as its amazing efficiency and security of its mining operations. www.quantumbitcoinmining.com
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